Interview with James Gordon, The Atlantic Monthly Magazine and The Washington Post. September 27, 1985
JG: I’ve been waiting many years to sit here.
Osho: I have also been waiting. It is never one-sided.
JG: I first saw your picture about twelve years ago when Shyam Singh was wearing a mala round his neck. I’ve been knowing about you for all those years and doing meditations . . .
Osho: Good!
JG: . . . Reading books. And I’ve been in Poona . . . And you’ve touched me a great deal over the years in many ways.
Osho: That I can see. […]
JG: I’m writing a book on new religions, and I’ve spent time with different groups, and a number of the people, who are leading groups have the same idea and are trying to approach it in their own way. The Maharishi is trying to approach it in his way. Even Reverend Moon has spent millions of dollars on bringing scientists together. What do you think the difference is between the way you’re approaching it and the way they’re approaching it?
Osho: The difference is that I don’t consider their meditation at all a meditation. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi I know perfectly well — his meditation is simply chanting, and that is a method of auto-hypnosis. It is not harmful, it is perfectly good if you are doing it just for rest, relaxation — after twenty minutes you will feel good, better — but it is not meditation. It is just repeating a certain name — you can repeat your own name, so fast, that it does not allow any other thought to have any space in the mind. And your mind becomes focused only on one thought.
The nature of the mind is to be constantly changing. If you focus it on anything, then the second alternative mind knows is to go to sleep. That is auto-hypnosis. It can be done by looking at the light, it can be done by any concentration method. So Maharishi Mahesh Yogi’s transcendental meditation is just a joke; it is not meditation, it should be accepted for what it is. It is good; it does no harm to anybody, so I am not against it.
But I want to make it clear that it is not meditation and nobody can come to realize oneself through it. Nobody can reach to the deathless within you. And where is the source of life, bliss and ecstasy, well-being is just an ordinary thing — just a good sleep will do that, a good shower will do that. It is not much.
And Reverend Moon is just another Christian, and what he can offer is prayer, not meditation, because in Christianity there is no place for meditation. Any religion which believes in God has no place for meditation. Only religions which don’t believe in God have place for meditation. This is a simple division.
Jainism and Buddhism are the two religions which don’t believe in God. That’s why their whole emphasis is on meditation; prayer, to whom? — There is no God. All that you can do is to go deeper and deeper into yourself. And India for thousands of years has been experimenting and they have almost exhausted every method — there are one hundred twelve methods and I don’t think that anything can be added. They have exhausted all possibilities. Ten thousand years effort of thousands of people, they have developed the science to its completion.
Reverend Moon can offer only prayer.
JG: I understand what you’re saying, but from the outside it looks similar.
Osho: From the outside many things look similar.
JG: So how are you going to get across the internal change that’s possible?
Osho: I am making it clear to the press, to you . . . My method is totally different. It is a method of witnessing. It is not hypnosis. It does not lead you into sleep. It leads you into more awareness, more alertness. You have just to witness three steps.
First, all actions of your body; second, all actions of your mind — thoughts, imaginations, dreams; third, all actions of your heart — moods, happiness, sadness, and when you become completely capable of watching all these three, the fourth happens on its own accord. Two miracles happen: one, the more you become aware, in the same proportion, thoughts and feelings start becoming lesser. Ten percent awareness and there are ninety percent thoughts; ninety percent awareness and there are ten percent thoughts; hundred percent awareness and there is zero, no thought. You are simply alert, looking at nothing. When it happens totally, that on all the three steps you are simply alert — there is no mood, no thought, no action — a quantum jump happens. It is not within you; it happens as a reward of your witnessing. Suddenly you find yourself at the center of the cyclone. Suddenly you are in a space you have never been, which gives you immense insight into everything, which gives you twenty-four hours a tremendous blissfulness. Whatever happens outside you makes no difference to your center; it remains the same.
-Osho
Excerpt from The Last Testament, V.3, Talk #6
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